Monday, May 08, 2006

Hall Of Famers

Not really sure why I'm starting with this, but just had a discussion recently about it, and basically tried to figure out which pitchers and hitters that are still playing or just retired will either definitely be in the HOF, or have a shot. Came down to three categories, "No Doubt 1st Ballot", "Yes - Not First Ballot", Possibly, but not likely, and the least likely "Would have to play until Julio Franco and Benito Santiago Age" (I don't think anyone knows how old Santiago is, but I'm pretty sure he could throw out Jose Reyes from his knees and smoke a cigar at the same time). We'll start with pitchers, since its a much shorter list.

No Doubt Hall Of Fame
Pedro Martinez (Red Sox)
204-88, 2.75 ERA, 2972 K's, 690 BB, 2614.2 IP, 46 CG, 17 SHO
8 time all star, 3 time cy young, 1 All-Star MVP
If you even have to think about this one your either a Yankee fan, or only know him for his jeri curl. On record alone maybe the most dominant pitcher of his time, but throw in the strikeouts, ERA and his post season performance (and don't forget the 1999 all star game) he could be considered the only pitcher that throughout his career was feared by teams. Imagine if he had been on actual good teams in Montreal? He won 17 games and had an era under two in '97, how do you not win 25 games? Long story short, he may never reach close to 300 wins unless he hangs around for a while, which somehow I don't think he will do, but he was (arguably still can be) one of only 2 other pitchers during his time that dominated like Sandy Koufax. Pedro could retire after this year, and be a first ballot hall of famer. As a Mets fan, I totally am against this, but it would be awesome to just walk away while you still are considered dominant, which very few players ever do.

Randy Johnson (Arizona Diamondbacks)
273-143, 3.18 ERA, 4,469 K's, 1385 BB, 3707.2 IP, 97 CG, 37 SHO
10 time All-Star, 5 time Cy Young, 1 World Series MVP
Not bad for a guy drafted in the 4th round. The Unit has always been the most intimidating pitcher on the mound, even after he discovered how to control his high 90's fastball and slider. Early in his career he was so wild that it became a joke, as John Kruk will tell anyone who will listen. Once he turned it around he became the one guy that no one wanted to see glaring down at them from over his glove. He singlehandedly was the difference maker in Arizona's world series win, picking up wins in games 6 & 7 and beating a team that no one thought would lose, the Yankees. Of course now he is a Yankee, but that's another rant about free agency. Johnson is another pitcher that dominated his era of baseball, and had a run of dominance that can only be compared to Koufax. Getting to 300 wins, a distinct possibility for a guy who while struggling still brings it at 95, would only solidify his resume as the best lefty pitcher, and maybe the best pitcher of his time.

Tom Glavine (Atlanta Braves)
286-186, 3.44 ERA, 2432 K's, 1373 BB, 4071 IP, 55 CG, 24 SHO
10 time All-Star, 2 time Cy Young, 1 World Series MVP
Arguably the least dominant of the big three from the great Brave's teams of the 90's, Tommy will get 300 wins, and is the definition the crafty lefty control pitcher. Somehow, and I say this with the utmost reverence, Glavine will surpass 300 wins with a fastball that barely cracks 90 (and is now closer to 86-88) and a changeup. He has a curve, but I don't think many people can say they've actually seen him throw it more than once. Glavine is so good at nibbling the outside corner, that the umpires union might blame him (and Maddux) for the need to bring in Questec. Although never absolutely dominant, Glavine just knew how to win, with 5 20+ win seasons and 6 seasons with ERA's under 3. He probably would have a handful of gold gloves right now too, if not having spent his entire career looking up to the greatest fielding pitcher ever. Comparing Glavine and Johnson isn't really fare because they are two different styles of pitchers, but their consistent success is something that can't be ignored.

Greg Maddux (Atlanta Braves)
325-198, 3.06 ERA, 3114 K's, 927 BB, 4516.2 IP, 108 CG, 34 SHO
8 time All-Star, 4 time Cy Young, 15 Gold Gloves
The Professor, and my personal favorite pitcher ever, is the picture of consistency. How do you win 325 games, with only 2 20 win seasons? Win 15+ games for 17 straight years, a major league record, a streak that was only ended last year, partially due to some poor pitching, and the Cubs bullpen (he still won 13). Maddux mastered the inside and outside corner, able to throw any pitch at anytime anywhere on the plate. Nothing is more entertaining than announcers or hitters guessing what it is Maddux just threw them because of the various speeds, cuts and placement he would use on every pitch he threw. Probably his best pitch, and a ballsy one, was the down and in changeup to a righty. Even now you hardly ever see a righty throw this to a fellow righty because if you miss it will be crushed. Not only is Maddux a 300+ game winner, he is also the greatest fielding pitcher ever, winner of 15 gold gloves. He also was maybe the smartest player at all times on the field, often knowing exactly every pitch he had ever thrown a hitter in his career. Never considered a strike out pitcher, he has better than a 3:1 K:B ratio, and over 3000 total K's. Probably most impressive about anything else on his resume is his utter dominance during a time when the ball was flying out of the park. From 1992-1998 his ERA never went higher than 2.72, and had two seasons that boggle the mind. In '94 he had a 1.56 ERA (strike year) and in '95 had a 1.63 ERA and a 19-2 record. The fact that he didn't win 30 games with an ERA that low still amazes me.

John Smoltz (Atlanta Braves)
183-133, 154 SV, 3.27 ERA, 2677 K's, 910 BB, 3054.1 IP, 52 CG, 16 SHO, 14 BS
7 time All-Star, 1 Cy Young, 1 NLCS MVP, 1 Rolaids Relief Award
Some peope may question if Smoltz is a first ballot hall of famer, and I think you have to look no further than HOFer Dennis Eckersely. Smoltz, for a shorter period of time was a dominant closer, and before that was one of the best starting pitchers in the league. The only reason he has only 1 Cy Young is because of his teamates Glavine and Maddux, but ask any braves fan and they will tell you they wanted Smoltz pitching a big game for them (thus the amazing playoff numbers). Of the Atlanta trio he may have had the best stuff, with a mid 90's fastball (that could get closs to triple digits when he closed) a nasty slider, and sometimes just to mess with people, he would throw a knuckler Wade Boggs style. He also has consistently pulled off the full beard look his entire career, something that is rarely done. What really makes Smoltz so great is his consumate attitude of team first. He was never happy about becoming a closer, but the braves needed one, and for 3 straight years he was as dominant as any closer in baseball helping the braves caputure 3 more NL East titles. Most pitchers don't go back to being effective starters after that, but Smoltz has made the transition once again.

Roger Clemens (Boston Red Sox)
342-174, 3.12 ERA, 4517 K's, 1528 BB, 4726.2 IP, 118 CG, 46 SHO
11 time All-Star, 7 time Cy Young, 1 AL MVP, 1 All-Star MVP
The Rocket is living legend, someone that every power pitcher this side of Nolan Ryan & Bob Gibson is compared with. The Michael Jordan of baseball (not in the I'm retiring so I can play a sport that I suck at sort of way) Clemens has dominated American and National League hitters for 3 decades. He was the best pitcher in the AL on Boston, who ran him out of town in the early 90's and he reinvented himself with the splitter in Toronto. He went to NY and continued to dominate, finally winning a championship. Then after retiring he decided to come back with Houston, and of course wins another Cy Young. Somehow, he is still doing it, and doing it and doint it well, and his son is a single A player now. Clemens was always intimidating, and you didn't mess with him, the kind of guy who would throw at your head, then break your bat on a weak grounder to short and throw the bat shards at you and somehow get away with it by saying he thought it was the ball (and no he doesn't usually play using kick ball rules). I wouldn't be surprised if he would hit his own son if the kid showed him up on the mound. A real throwback, we may never see a pitcher like him again, someone who dominated his entire career, was almost always healthy, dominated both leagues, and probably will still throw a ball 95 at age 60. Maybe I'm not doing him justice here, but if you saw him pitch at any point of his career you would realize he was the best athlete, best competitor and probably the best pitcher on the field, in the dugout or within the united states at any given time. Just don't look at him funny.

Mariano Rivera (New York Yankees)
58-39, 398 SV, 2.30 ERA, 763 K's, 223 BB, 852.2 IP, 54 BS
7 time All-Star, 1 World Series MVP, 1 ALCS MVP, 4 Rolaids Relief Awards
What separates Mariano from the man right below him is simply greatness, and greatness in the postseason. He has a 17-7 record, with 34 saves and a 0.81 ERA in the postseason. Yes you read that right. Rivera has been the most effective and shutdown closer ever, and has done it in every situation imaginable, from the All-Star game, to the playoffs to the world series, and has done it with a single pitch, his cutter. There is nothing that says closer like the pitcher pretty much saying to the hitter, here is my best pitch, try to hit it. And more times than not they swing and miss, or broke their bat with weak groundballs. Many people point to Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams and Jorge Posada as the reasons why the Yankees won so many championships and are always competing, but Rivera is the real reason. Think about how often teams change closers, and then realize that Rivera is still at the top of his game, and unlike many closers, can get 5 outs instead of three. Opposing teams, whenever speaking about the Yankees talk about it like its a 7 inning game, becaue they know that even if they get some runners on in the 8th inning Rivera will come in, shut them down, and then mow down the heart of the order in the ninth, all with a single pitch.

Trevor Hoffman
49-54, 460 SV, 2.72 ERA, 942 K's, 244 BB, 858 IP, 53 BS
5 time All-Star, 1 Rolaids Relief Award
Although not as dominant in the post-season (or all-star game costing the mets home field advantage) his numbers are actually just as good as Rivera's, if not better. He is to the national league what Rivera is to the american league, the one closer no one ever wants to see coming out of that bullpen. Maybe the best changeup i've ever seen a reliever throw, he doesn't quite have the same fastball he's used to, but try explaining that to hitters who keep missing and they'll tell you he's still just as dominant as ever. He may retire as the all-time saves leader, unless Rivera passes him, and should help usher in the new generation of HOFers, which will include the modern day closer.

Not First Ballot
John Franco
90-87, 424 SV, 2.89 ERA, 975 K's, 495 BB, 1245.2 IP, 39 BS
4 time All-Star, 2 Rolaids Relief Awards
Johnny will always be loved here in NY, even if he may have given more grey hairs and caused more heart attacks than anyonen this side of Armando Benitez. He liked to put a runner or two on base before ending the game, just so you would always pay attention with a 3 run lead. Then again, you can't argue with effectiveness, and he is the all time leader in saves for a lefthand, and third all time in saves (until rivera passes him). Unlike most closers, he never had a dominant fastball, but relied on some craftyness, and hitters swinging at bad pitches. 8 seasons of 30 or more saves showed how effective he could be, and in the little post season experience he did have he pitched very well, going 2-0, with a save and a 1.88 ERA. Not on the same level as the dominant closers of his generation, he will get in for his over number of saves, and the fac that he did it basically with 2 teams. Lee Smith seems to constantly be hurt by the fact that he closed just about anywhere that had a baseball team, and when you can't identify a player with a team it hurts their chances.

Curt Schilling
202-134, 3.40 ERA, 2956 K's, 676 BB's 3040.1 IP, 82 CG, 19 SHO
7 time All-Star, 1 NLCS MVP, 1 World Series MVP
Mr. Bloody Sock. That's really all that you need to say. Before Schilling went to the Red Sox he'd be on the I don't think so list, but simply by being the most memorable part of a team that ended the curse, he will be propelled into the hall of fame. Plus it doesn't hurt that he keeps on winning and could end up with about 225 or more wins. Historical achievements, and ending a curse aside, Schilling should be closing in on 300 wins right now, like Randy Johnson if not being stuck on some awful philly teams that cost him a large number of wins in the 90's. He's a better known Kevin Appier, who managed to get away to Arizona, and suddenly be on a good team, same thing in Boston. He never won 20 games before going to arizona, but his k's have always been high, and you have to love a throwback guy, who wants to finish what he started, incredibly rare in this generation of pitch counts. Imagine how many complete games he could have thrown if Dusty Baker was his manager!

Mike Mussina
235-130, 3.63 ERA, 2513 K's, 708 BB, 3141.1 IP, 57 CG, 23 SHO
5 time All-Star, 6 Gold Gloves
A poor man's Maddux, Moose has been consistently a winner throughout his career, although he has never won 20 games, and only been in the top 3 in Cy voting once in his career. He has however had 9 seasons of 15 or more wins, and has been on winning teams wherever he has played. Always a workhorse, he is the only person I know that throws a knucklecurve, and for that alone he should get in the hall. How the heck do you throw a knucklecurve! When all is said and done, Moose may end up with more wins than Schilling and Pedro and yet have the highest ERA on this list. Sometimes you just can't argue with someone who knows how to win ball games. The effective pitchers tend to get ignored when they are quiet, and don't throw 95 (or have the last name Maddux). He should go in as an Oriole, and I can almost already hear yankee fans complaining.

Roy Oswalt
89-45, 3.07 ERA, 935 K's, 249 BB, 1107 IP, 11CG, 4 SHO
1 time All-Star, 1 NLCS MVP
I know I know, your sitting there saying what the hell is he doing on this list. He's way to young to really call yet, but if you look at his numbers, and his dominance the last few years, he may have the most legit chance at the HOF, even more so than someone like Johan Santana (who is really too young to call, ever hear of Dwight Gooden?). If you look at Roy now he has 89 wins and is 28 years old. Say he wins 14 games on average for the next 8 years, a very reasonable assumption given that he averaged over 16 wins his first 5 years. Then suddenly were talking about him in the 200 win range, with more k's than Moose, a couple of 20 win seasons under his belt, and arguably one of the most dominant pitchers in the NL of his generation, which Moose can never say. Then again, he may retired in 5 years to go chop wood with Billy Wagner, so you never know.

Possibly but not likely
Kevin Brown
Andy Pettitte
Bartolo Colon
Billy Wagner

Would have to play until Julio Franco and Benito Santiago Age
Jamie Moyer
David Wells

2 Comments:

Blogger LairdNYC said...

Despite Curt Schilling’s many accomplishments (actually, there aren’t really that many), I cannot believe that this man is being considered a sure thing Hall of Famer (although not a first ballot, I understand). Though he was a memorable part of the World Series team that ended the curse, it certainly was not all because of Schilling. In that four game series, he only pitched once, while series MVP Manny Ramirez played all four. If we are going to use post season success as a catalyst to get into the Hall of Fame, I give you one name that deserves it more than Schilling: Andy Pettitte. While combining regular season and post season statistics, Pettitte currently has 5 more wins and 2 fewer losses than Schilling and is also 5 and a half years younger than Schilling. Despite Schilling’s 2 World Series appearances (and 2 titles), Pettitte has appeared in 7 different World Series (1996, ‘98, ‘99, ‘00, ‘01, ‘03 and ‘05) and has garnered four rings (’96, ’98, 99, ‘00). Pettitte also has an LCS MVP award, and we must remember that Schilling’s World Series MVP was actually a Co-MVP with Randy Johnson. If we are arguing for Curt Schilling, you better bring Andy Pettitte into the conversation.

I like your going-out-on-a-limb with Roy Oswalt, but I think you took the wrong Roy. Despite Oswalt’s fantastic streak to start his career, I think over the long haul it is going to be Roy Halladay that takes the attention. Two more career wins than Oswalt, as well as a four time all star versus Oswalt’s 2, the biggest difference has to be Halladay’s Cy Young Award that he won in 2003. Pitching in the ever so difficult AL East, Halladay has been able to shut down power houses like the Yankees and Red Sox for years. Though you may call that an advantage for Oswalt, Halladay has shown that he can turn the Yankees into the Royals anytime he steps onto the mound. I won’t argue that Oswalt doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, but I will argue that Roy Halladay should be included on the list.

7:06 AM

 
Blogger Just one more bite said...

Ok ok, you win on Halladay, the dude is awesome, and I just totally forgot about him, cause I tend to ignore Canadians. Pettite won't make it, you can't combine post season and regular season stats, and pettite never had some of the regular seasons that Schilling had.

8:15 AM

 

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